[Trick]

Erik returns with the second part of his series, what did you think? Learn something?

-- Trick

[Lythand]

That's a very controversial article there. Peter Jahn of Star City games and level 2 judge wrote an article even simular that stirred up a lot of controversy. One example he put forward was:

Time was called in round 4 of the prerelease pod five minutes ago. As you approach a table, you see two kids roll a die, then start filling out the match result slip. They did just roll for the win, but the kids are age ten and eleven and this is their first tournament. Do you DQ them?

Here is the answer:

As a judge, the first thing you will do is investigate. Let’s assume that you ask them what the die roll was for, and they tell you that if they drew, neither player would get prizes. If either won, that player would get some packs, so they rolled a die to decide who got the win.

Yes, that is bad. It is a clear case of Unsporting Conduct — Randomly Determining a Winner (Sec. 143 of the Penalty guidelines.) The penalty for that offense is Disqualification without Prize. That’s what happened, and that’s the penalty that should be assessed.

Yes, they are kids. Yes, it is their first tournament. Yes, they did not realize that rolling a die was a DQ offense. That does not matter — those are not exceptional circumstances. (Everyone has a first tournament. Everyone is young, once. Being a new player is no more a reason to downgrade or ignore than being a pro is reason to upgrade. The penalty guidelines have levels of rules enforcement built in. Judges do not need to — and should not — adjust the PG results further to reflect level of tournament or player experience.)

In short, you DQ the kids.

You can read the full article here which is another great article of what a judge does and doesn't do.

I will say, at first I did not agree with some of the statements in that article, but after reading the whole thing, I understood what a judge's resposibilities were. Which in turn helps me understand this article as well.

Good article, would of liked to see some more scenarios, maybe some more controversial ones like the one with the two kids.

[UnityErik]

Well, I was more focused on the Game Loss aspects of play, but I'm glad you brought this point up.

Peter is a great judge whom I have had the opportunity to work with a couple of times before and his article is spot on ... for then. The newest version of the Penalty Guidelines that went active on March 20th give a Head Judge the discretion to downgrade a DQ to a match loss **IF**:
1. The offense happens at a tournament run at Regular REL.
2. The players commit the offense without the knowledge that it was illegal and without malice.

Just something to consider.

[Lythand]

Im not so sure thats a good thing or a bad thing. I mean it's nice to give someone a second chance and all, but now you open the door to questionable desicions. I could theoretically cut off a judge in the parking lot and when it comes time for a game breaking desicion, he could give me a match loss. Where as if he sees the son of a friend playing and the same scenario comes up, he may give a game loss instead. I just see a door for favoritism, and not a solid right or wrong answer here.

[Trick]

There is criticism on both sides of the fence, they've been criticized for being too strict and not allowing the bending of the rules, and now that they allow it there is room for your point as well.

In any case, I'm off to the pre-release.

-- Trick

[Lythand]

I don't know how it happens, but everytime there is a Prerelease, It ends up being my weekend to work. 

[UnityErik]

Im not so sure thats a good thing or a bad thing. I mean it's nice to give someone a second chance and all, but now you open the door to questionable desicions. I could theoretically cut off a judge in the parking lot and when it comes time for a game breaking desicion, he could give me a match loss. Where as if he sees the son of a friend playing and the same scenario comes up, he may give a game loss instead. I just see a door for favoritism, and not a solid right or wrong answer here.

I hope that no judge I have on staff *ever* allows any bias to affect his decision like that.

Even though the head judge has the final say at a tournament, you can always contact the DCI if you believe a judge is engaging in questionable behavior at an event. Believe me, they will investigate if they feel you have a case.

[gleemax]

I guess you should have covered deck registration in this one.  I sat next to a poor guy in the Megaflight who got a game loss in round 2 becuase he had forgotten to register the lands he was playing. Sad loss for him, but a lesson for us all to be careful.

[Trick]

That's rough. I do wish the deck reg sheets had spaces for foil cards. That would probably save a lot of people pain.

[gleemax]

Also, you might want to reeducate some of your newer? judges on reading the card carefully before making a call.  Nothing ever happened to me, believe me I would have asked to speak with the head judge, but twice over this weekend I heard a story about an obviously bad call in which the player didn’t talk with the head judge.  1st one happened to my wife.  She played a Grief Tyrant and her opponent wanted a clarification about the card.  She thought she had to put all of the -1/-1 counters on one creature when it died and the opponent thought she could actually choose to split the counters up if she wanted to (I guess the opponent wanted to help make her a better player).  When they asked the judge, he actually said that the Tyrant made her put a -1/-1 counter on a different creature for every counter on the Tyrant. Simply reading the card, maybe twice, would allow you to know realize that the call was clearly bad.  My wife asked me about this call later and I asked her why she didn’t try to explain herself to the judge and she said she just thought she was too new and that the judge must know more about the game than she did.

The 2nd call was during the mega flight.  After I beat my opponent, he asked me what I thought about Painter’s Servant.  I said it was a fantastic card because it can really boost those creatures whose power and toughness were equal to the number of permanents you control with a certain color.  He then showed me his crowd of cinders and I pointed out that it would be really big since all of his land could be black too.  He asked me if I was sure, since he had a judge called on him earlier and the judge ruled that Painter’s Servant only changed the colors of cards not in play.  I pointed out the word “permanents” right in the text box and I think the guy was shocked that the judge had given him a bad call.  For the record, we’re not sure which judge that was, just that it wasn’t Twitch.

I know that the judges have a lot of work to do, but at a prerelease I feel judges should take a little more time to read the new cards before making rulings since they’re aren’t as many rules guru’s like me who know how to frame their questions properly and call the head judge when needed.  In fact, I think prereleases tend to have more newer players who take the judges words as infallible law and don’t think for a second that a judge could make an error.  Bad calls due to complicated situations and layer rules are bound to happen, but there really isn’t an excuse for lots of bad calls caused for simply not reading the card all the way. It cheapens the experience for new player and gives them a bad taste of competitive magic which might send them back to their kitchen tables.


So here's a question for you.  I know if you happen to be watching a game and notice an illegal game state, you can call a judge over to deal with the situation.  But what happens when you hear a bad call?  Even if you're not involved can you ask to speak with the head judge and get the rulling overturned?  I know some people might view this a butting in, but I think of it more as helping everyone play the game as it's supposed to be.

[Trick]

Good feedback guys,

I'm going to try and cut this one off at the pass as we had a thread after the Morningtide pre-release concerning judges as well. I don't want a response to an article thread to become a thread about judge issues unrelated to the article.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for addressing issues and bringing them to light. Just not in an article response thread. Open a thread up in 'The Rules' please if there are further issues for discussion.

-- Trick

[gleemax]

sorry, it was more of a set up to ask the question i had at the end. I'll try to stay on topic next time.

[Trick]

No worries, I don't have any issues, just didn't want 14 more people chiming in on it

[Lythand]

I hope that no judge I have on staff *ever* allows any bias to affect his decision like that.

Even though the head judge has the final say at a tournament, you can always contact the DCI if you believe a judge is engaging in questionable behavior at an event. Believe me, they will investigate if they feel you have a case.

My question to that is, and it's been a question on my mind for a while, say you know the answer the judge gave you is wrong, and the head judge is a person and makes mistakes as well, and he gives you a wrong answer, then what. Who do you apeal to them? At that point you are stuck with the jusdgement as there is no one else you can go to.

[imachampion]

My question to that is, and it's been a question on my mind for a while, say you know the answer the judge gave you is wrong, and the head judge is a person and makes mistakes as well, and he gives you a wrong answer, then what. Who do you apeal to them? At that point you are stuck with the jusdgement as there is no one else you can go to.

If it gets past both the floor judge and the head judge without you fully getting your point across...then your argueing technique needs to be tweaked. I'm not directing this at you...just answering your question. The Head Judge is the final authority. Resistance is Futile.