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Author Topic: quickn toast sideboard help  (Read 293 times)
gp
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« on: June 20, 2008, 01:40:52 AM »

// Lands
    3 [LRW] Vivid Marsh
    4 [LRW] Vivid Creek
    2 [LRW] Vivid Crag
    3 Island (3)
    5 [SHM] Forest (1)
    4 [TE] Reflecting Pool
    3 [SHM] Sunken Ruins

// Creatures
    3 [LRW] Cloudthresher
    1 [LRW] Horde of Notions
    2 [LRW] Shriekmaw
    4 [LRW] Mulldrifter
    1 [MOR] Chameleon Colossus

// Spells
    3 [SHM] Firespout
    2 [MOR] Mind Spring
    3 [LRW] Incendiary Command
    2 [LRW] Makeshift Mannequin
    4 [LRW] Cryptic Command
    4 [LRW] Broken Ambitions
    3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
    4 [8E] Fertile Ground

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Cloudthresher
SB: 2 [LRW] Shriekmaw
SB: 4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 4 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

the sideboard neads a lot of help but the main deck is really good
« Last Edit: June 20, 2008, 07:51:10 AM by Trick » Logged
imachampion
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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2008, 08:12:31 AM »

I really like Gaddock Teeg in this format. The problem I see with him here is that he shuts off almost all of your spells. If you can land a Horde of Notions and then follow it up with a Gaddock Teeg...I think you will win that game...but if you drop a turn 2 Gaddock Teeg...you are going to be in a tough spot. I am going to do some testing with this and I will post my results.
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The next time you think you are perfect...try walking on water. angel

You miss 100% of the shots you never take. -Wayne Gretzky

If you got everything that you wished for...there would be nothing left to wish for.
gp
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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2008, 11:58:32 AM »

your right i thought it only affected your oppoinent but i guss nota
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imachampion
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« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2008, 02:13:16 PM »

I also noticed that you don't run any copies of Primal Command. I know several builds that are dropping it from their lists but...if you don't run it...it seems like a wasted spot to run a 1 of Horde of Notions. Your chances of drawing it are so slim that...I just don't think that its worth running a 1 of without a tutor for it.
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The next time you think you are perfect...try walking on water. angel

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If you got everything that you wished for...there would be nothing left to wish for.
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« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2008, 03:00:29 PM »

I would run Puppeteer Clique in the side, its amazing in the mirror match and against elementals, at the block ptq in tally i saw someone cast the Clique, choosing to grab their opponents Cloudthresher, the thresher came into play, killed the clique, which persisted back in, and grabbed their opponents Horde of Notions, to swing for 12
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esternaefil
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« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2008, 11:43:00 AM »

Hey gp, your list looks alright, though there are a few things I would definitely think about changing.

// Lands
    3 [LRW] Vivid Marsh
    4 [LRW] Vivid Creek
    2 [LRW] Vivid Crag
    3 Island (3)
    5 [SHM] Forest (1)
    4 [TE] Reflecting Pool
    3 [SHM] Sunken Ruins

There are some really nice things about this manabase.  I personally only run 8 vivids, but I can appreciate running nine.  However I think you are running the wrong ones.  This deck lives and dies on Blue and Green mana.  I would suggest that the three vivid marshes should become vivid groves certainly.

But more importantly than that is the fact that you are simply running too few lands.  All of the lists that have made top8s or won (available on deckcheck.net) are running between 25 and 27 lands, and the three lists that Pat Chapin have presented have uniformly been serving 27 lands.

This is very important, because a lot of people get lost in the number of AWESOME things that this deck does.  they lose sight of the fact that this deck breathes deep on making its land drops, not on accelerating into a 'great play' soon in the game.

I would probably suggest the following mana base:

Land:
4 Reflecting Pool
4 Vivid Creek
3 Vivid Grove
2 Vivid Crag
3 Sunken Ruins
2 Mystic Gate
2 Fire-Lit thicket
4 Island
1 Mountain

You'll note that I changed it a fair bit, but mainly I just added two lands (26) and repalced the majority of your basics (which don't help you one bit in casting all of your amazing awesome effects) for hybrid duals (which would probably be swapped again when eventide comes out for something a bit more evenly spaced).

Quote
// Creatures
    3 [LRW] Cloudthresher
    1 [LRW] Horde of Notions
    2 [LRW] Shriekmaw
    4 [LRW] Mulldrifter
    1 [MOR] Chameleon Colossus

So, you start off fine, I agree 100% with the Horde of Notions, though you aren't doing enough with it for my tastes.  I'd be running a few more creatures than this, up to the full four shriekmaws (they are VITAL against kithkin right now with their Burrenton Forge-Tenders being as trump as anything), and replacing the colossus and one of the clouthreshers with two Oona Queen of the Fae (this girl is perhaps the most brilliant design on a blue creature in years.  She stops most decks kold, and while she is a little weak to a colossus, you have ways of managing that threat later on).  Colossus actually just doesn't do anything in your list, I would much rather be attacking my opponent from an alternative angle than just be hoping to turn it sideways a few times for the double-ewe.

In order to effectively defeat aggro however you need one very important tool.  Plumeveil.  This is a little wall that WILL, not just could.  He is better than psionic blast on the defensive because he stops your opponent's entire offense until they find a way to deal with him.  I run two in mine, some people get different mileage out of him and might want one or three.

Quote
// Spells
    3 [SHM] Firespout
    2 [MOR] Mind Spring
    3 [LRW] Incendiary Command
    2 [LRW] Makeshift Mannequin
    4 [LRW] Cryptic Command
    4 [LRW] Broken Ambitions
    3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
    4 [8E] Fertile Ground

This isn't bad, but it's a touch messy.  First of all.  Fertile Ground must go.  I think that it's been demonstrated that even without riftwings and vensers, this little enchantment is just too slow to really have the kind of impact you are looking for.  cut down to two of those gives you your two needed spots for the shriekmaws added above.  cut two more and buy yourself some wrath of gods.  Austere Command looks slow, and in many cases it is, but it's also necessary.  It takes out kithkins better than incendiary command a lot of the time (see: thistledown liege) and it takes out bitterblossoms which might just be relevant to this metagame.  also it can kill through a forge-tender, which is important since you won't always have shriekmaw.

If you insist on running spot removal, you relaly want crib swap over oblivion ring.  Most decks that run 'important enchantments' have ways of getting rid of your ring in the first place... and o-ring is a one-shot, while crib swap kills colossi, mistbinds, oversouls, hordes, and oonas all day long thanks to horde of notions recursion.  However in my list I run none of these mainboard (2 side).

Instead I run the following spell suite:

4 Cryptic Command
4 Broken Ambitions
3 Firespout
2 Mind Spring
2 Austere Command
2 Incendiary Command
1 Primal Command
2 Makeshift Mannequin

Noting that this is shorter by a fair margin than your spell list since I added some creatures and lands above.

Quote
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Cloudthresher
SB: 2 [LRW] Shriekmaw
SB: 4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 4 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

the sideboard neads a lot of help but the main deck is really good

Some of those choices are ok.  But mostly, I disagree with the whole sideboard.  I htink that you are right to want an extra cloudthresher (giving you three after boards), but you aren't relying on the thresher against faeries, you are relying on your ability to maximize your cards, creating advantages out of marginal situations (not evoking shriekmaws, not evoking mulldrifters, swinging with 'defensive' creatures in prep for a firespout/austere/incendiary, knowing you'll be hording it back soon enough).

The problem with kitchen finks is not that it is a brilliant defensive creature, but rather that it isn't a brilliant -elemental- defensive creature.  you note that other than oona, EVERY CREATURE in the deck is an elemental?  these can all be recurred with horde of notions (who is perhaps the most difficult to kill creature in the block), and this is incredibly important.  Yes, gaining life is important against some aggro decks, but against kithkin 4 life isn't going to change the end result of their mirrorweave for 30damage... and being able to block 'a guy on the ground' isn't going to really help too much against faeries.

You want to be attacking them, not defending against them.  Looking for strategies that help you keep THEM off balance instead of trying so desperately to balance yourself against their offense.  Fulminator Mage.  Alongside mannequin and horde of notions, this guy is a powerhouse.  Even if you just get one land (mutavault/windbrisk heights) you have gained yourself more life than finks ever could, and you've started throwing monkey wrenches in their plans.  Seems brilliant to me!

Personally I run a primal command maindeck, and one more in the sideboard which helps me to work within a toolbox of creatures post-board.  I run a pupeteer clique (just an absolute beating in the mirror) a wispmare, and two sower of temptations (absolute monsters against the rock decks, and being amazingly versitile in many unexpected situations). 

I also run Mind Shatter against the control and midrange decks as both a test spell against countermagic, and a mid-game swing turning what might be a disadvantageous situation into a very advantageous one.  Note that I don't take mind spring out for these, as every case where shatter is good, spring is comparable and often better.

my sideboard is finished off with the foreshadowed crib swaps.  These give me a good amount of edge against most decks, being a strong tool against lieges, mirrirweaves, cliques, colossi, oversouls, demigods, and more.  The fact that they are recastable and recastable again is brilliant, and he mana base I suggested earlier makes it none too difficult to et to WUBRG.

I hope that these tips and suggestions help you out.  I am fairly confident that this is what I will be playing for the duration of the season with my noted good matchups against kithkin and Faeries and my perfectly serviceable matchup against elementals (need still to find a way to counteract their huge horde advantage), I feel that this is a deck that could easily go all the way.
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gp
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« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2008, 12:13:09 PM »

thanks for they advice  alien
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gp
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« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2008, 11:50:07 AM »

thamks esternail i played 10 games whith the dech on mws heres how i did

i lost aginst the doran rock dech twice both times i lost

i annialated shaman .dec

i beet elves
 i beat mono black controll  when u sideboard for this match u should take out shriekmaw for cribe swap
shriekmaw loses its effectivness when playing aginst mono black

beet quickn toast

barly lost aginst kithkin

went aginst white green controll but i fond a stratagy that works aginst that dech generly if u keep killing creatures and just throw obsticals at them ull slow the deck down long enough to gane tempo advantaige and then throw out a bomb like ona the best blue card made

4 side board  u should take out the clould threshers and 1 shriekmaw for 3cribe swap and the green cammand

note things might change



« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 01:05:08 AM by gp » Logged
esternaefil
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« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2008, 12:11:40 PM »

thamks esternail i played 10 games whith the dech on mws heres how i did

i lost aginst the doran rock dech twice both times i lost

i annialated shaman .dec

i beet elves
 i beat mono black controll  when u sideboard for this match u should take out shriekmaw for cribe swap
shriekmaw loses its effectivness when playing aginst mono black

beet quickn toast

barly lost aginst kithkin

went aginst white green controll but i fond a stratagy that works aginst that dech generly if u keep killing creatures and just throw obsticals at them ull slow the deck down long enough to gane tempo advantaige and then throw out a bomb like ona the best blue card made

4 side board  u should take out the clould threshers and 1 shriekmaw for 3cribe swap and the green cammand

note things might change





Yeah, I've been testing, and while I've made a few changes (that I'll discuss after work when I'm home with my list) I've noted that doran is a quite bad matchup.  The deck just has a very difficult time defeating the 5/5 himself, and their profane commands are so much better than your incendiary commands.

Crib swap helps here, as their most important elements are their ability to profane command their creatures back and their ability to apply superior pressure in the early and mid-game, if you have the opportunity to take out their dorans and colossi in the early game, and recurse those swaps in the later game, you have a good chance of stealing some games you might have a hard time winning.  I take out shriekmaws and put in crib swaps.  Shriekmaw is weak against the two most important creature cards in that deck (colossus and doran) and it doesn't actually do anyhting to prevent profane command from spelling your end.

For kithkin, it might be easier with the fourth firespout which I've added to my list.
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gp
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« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2008, 07:32:07 AM »

hi i switched out mind spring for overbeing of myth .
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gp
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« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2008, 01:56:51 AM »

i played ten more games on mws
lost 4 times aginst kithkin
lost 2 aginst doran
lost 4 times aginst elves
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esternaefil
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« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2008, 07:51:06 AM »

Hi, the reason I haven't been back to post my changes it because I've begun a different project.  Instead I'm hybridizing Commandments with elementals into a sort of solar-flare... similar in base function to the chapin solar flare...

My difficulty is that I have MUCH more than 75 cards I want to play, so the main priority of my testing has been to scrap the bad effects.

BTW: Hallowed Burial.

NUTS.

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gp
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« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2008, 03:19:57 PM »

i was playing the deck on mws but it got to a point where it got incrisingly harder to win have u got to the same conclushin
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esternaefil
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« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2008, 08:50:12 PM »

yeah, I did... I was having trouble with kithkin too.  I really think that eventide will help.  Focusing on UBW and eschewing the tertiary colours in favour of a bit more consistency... hallowed burial is a huge effect... despite still not being brilliant against faeries as an archetype
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