[imachampion]

Ok so we are now able to trade on the site.

How do we want to work out the honesty policy? Are we going to have a Feedback score...or how will this work? How will we know who is to send first...etc.

[Trick]

As of now, I, Lee, and MN can't be responsible for anything about it. I've got too much on my plate and I don't want to leave us open to any liabilities if some moron gets jipped and decides to come after the show for providing the medium.

Down the road, I could see an app to manage trading, such as managing your collection for trade and your reputation through a feedback process. As of now, I recommend someone maintain a central list of users and give a simple +/- 1 depending on people's feedback.

-- Trick

[imachampion]

heh...Sorry Trick. I wasn't refering to you. I was simply asking the rest of the community how we can keep honest people honest.

We can open up a Thread in this forum where people who make successful / unsuccessful  trades can post. Kind of like this:

imachampion:
Positive Feedback - Trick (Link to Post), Trick (Link to Post), Trick (Link to Post)
Negative Feedback - Lee (Link to Post)

Example of Posts:

From Trick,
I traded with imachampion on 2-1-08. I sent first. Great Trader.

From Lee,
I traded with imachampion on 2-6-08. The bastard never sent his cards. He won't return emails. DO NOT TRADE!!

The only way that this would work though...is if both people gave posts on how the trade went.

Obviously this can still be manipulated with by newer members who don't have to worry about their reputation so...I would suggest basing trading on Post Count or even Date of Joining. This would be the only way that I could see having some kind of faith in people. Once people get established with trades...then things will get a little easier.

Thoughts?

[Wolfstalker]

hmmm this will be hard.  cuz u dont know who to trust...  i mean someone who has a lot of posts could rip u off just as easily, tho not as likely but they could.  They could just make a new account too if theirs got banned.  hmmm this will take some time to figure out.

the only thing i can think of for advice to people is: if u do make trades on here, dont make high value trades.  like set a limit for yourself.  like if i say "alright if i were to get jipped i dont want to lose more than $10" so then, the max $ amount worth of cards that i would trade at a time would be like $10 worth of cards.  if trading more than one card you could do it in sections of less value instead of all at once to ensure that you will get a fair trade.  I know this is hard when higher dollar cards like tarmogoyf come into play.  the only thing i can say is that you should make some trades with the person before trading higher dollar cards.  I'd love it if we could trust everyone on teh forums but we acnt cuz we dont really know each other too well. 

Now a thing that we could do would be to give each other tracking #'s for the shipped item.  that might help some...
idk, thats my 2 cents

[Trick]

Back in the day there used to be a company which would hold cards as an intermediate and then once it had received the parts from both parties they would send through the trade. I don't remember where it was or what its name was, but we need something like that.

[Wolfstalker]

yeah, that would be good, ill try to google and find one.

[imachampion]

@Wolfstalker,
Thats kind of what I was getting at. The best hope for trust that you are going to find is by highest post count here. If someone legitimately gets ripped off...the best you can do is ban them from the forums. Were this for money...using Paypal would be insurance enough...but it isn't.

@Trick,
Can you track IP addresses? If you can that would prevent people from ripping someone off and then making a new account...because then you could just match it to their previous account.

Again I think that the best way to find a trustworthy person is to find an established person in the ManaNation community. If the person isn't as established as you...they should have to send first. Once people get a few trades under their belt and we get up a system for tracking positive feedback...then we can switch to that.

[Wolfstalker]

ah i c wat ur sayin, about less established person sending first

huh that might work

[BassmanARW]

This is how we will have to do this

1. The reference system will have to be done like the official mtg marketplace for now. This means that in everyone's trade thread we will make a header of "References". When member 1 declares that they have received cards from member #2. Member #2 can add the username of member #1 to their Reference list. This is listing them as a ref. because that member can be referred to the fact that they received cards from them and can give a good report on their deal. When the other member receives, the sender can put that member's name down as a reference. People will then accumulate references until we will eventually be able to say. Well I, as member #1 have 50 references, while you, member #2 only have 1. Since you only have 1 ref, can you send first? When we get up to that point it will be easy to manage as all new members will have to work up the ladder until "deemed trustworthy" enough to send at the same time. For now, we should all send at the same time until we do get to a point where its like, I have 20 and you have 0.

2. USE DELIVERY CONFIRMATION. If you do this, no one can say "Well I didn't receive." unless the post office agrees. This will save everyone a ton of hassle. It isn't terrible expensive so why not be safe. It could be a "do not use delivery confirmation at your own risk", but we should just all use it until we establish references - especially for high value trades. There is no reason that we can't trade good stuff for good stuff if we use delivery confirmation.

3. Save all personal messages. The process should go like this. If you see some cards in a list that you like, post on the thread something like:
Hey, I am interested in your:
Tarmagoyf
Sinkhole
blah blah, etc

Please check my list for them and hopefully we can work something out.
Thanks!

If you want to be even nicer and if you want a better chance at a response you may want to also give them a list of what you have if you see cards you have on their want list.

After this, it should go directly to personal messages to negotiate the deal and eventually exchange addresses. Make sure you save the important messages that include the actual messages that say "Sounds good to me", "I accept your deal", etc. This will help avoid problems.

4. After addresses are exchanged, deals should be final. The reason for this, is to avoid situations where people should have sent 4 days ago, but then decide that they don't need such and such because of whatever. Then the other member is up in arms because they sent their cards, blah blah. If you look over a deal and it sounds good, accept it, but if you both agree to the deal, let it be done and over. This will help everything go a lot smoother


A trade thread should look something like this:

BassmanARW's Trade Thread

Rules:
1. Only tournament legal cards. No goldbordered or proxies
2. Only near mint-mint cards. If they are of worse or questionable condition, let me know. If mine are likewise, I will let you know.
3. Let me know when you receive my cards and I will do the same for you. If any problems arise, let me know asap
4. Because of the costs of shipping, let me know if you are not from the US or Canada. We all just kind of assume so spare me the pain at the end and LMK


References (Total 4. Unique 3:
User1
User2
User 3 (TWICE)


WANTS:

Red:
4x Char

Black:
2x Sinkhole

White:
1x Wrath of God

Blue
2x Remand

Green:
3x Tarmagoyf

Acceptable Throw Ins (incase we need to even the deal a tad)
Incinerate
Oblivion Ring
Counterspell

Haves:

Newly In! Last Updated (2/17/08)
2x Tarmagoyf
1x Call of the Herd

Red

Black

etc


Obviously this is up for a bit of creativity or personality, but in general the lists should be something like that so that they are organized and easy to read.
1. Make all headers in larger font.
2. Use colors to make things stand out as well
3. Tagging the cards will make your thread more professional and will be better for everyone
4. Update your thread semi consistently to avoid having to say..."Oh sorry man, I don't have that either"
5. Have fun. Be smart. Use price guides if you desire.

and remember...

Just because they are your cards doesn't mean that they are worth more than someone else's cards.

and...IF ANYONE DOES IN FACT, WITHOUT A REASONABLE DOUBT RIPS YOU OFF, FILE MAIL FRAUD!.
We need two threads stickied. One can be parts of this post on How to make your own trade thread. Someone else can take advice from this and make their own How to... thread as well. Secondly, we need one thread to just be something for questions and discussions regarding problems and anything else relating to this stuff.

If you suspect someone is ripping you off...
1. PLEASE, make sure you have talked to the other member about the matter first. You need to do everything you can to resolve the issue with that member before ruining their name with the community for possobly no reason. IF you really aren't getting anywhere with them, threaten them with mail fraud (which is very real and another reason why you should use delivery confirmation and keep your personal messages. Secondly, you can then discuss any questions about it with the community in the help/questions thread. But please, please, please do everything you can to resolve the issue with that member first before ruining their name.

And Trick/Lee we should come up with some way of validating that said user is a ripper and should be banned from the site because of it. Other sites can ban users - can you?

[Trick]

Can I ban users? CAN I BAN USERS!? Why I ought ta.... *breathes deeply* 10...9...8...7...

Anyways, yes I can ban users and track IP addresses. And in the future one or two of our regulars will be upgraded to moderators so they can wield power as well.

-- Trick

[imachampion]

@BassmanARW,
We are on the same page. Nothing irritates me more than seeing a trade thread like this:

I want Wrath of God.
Offers?

The basic layout could be broken down a little further than you explained:

Rules:

Refs:

Haves:

Wants:

Other:

The only reason i say this is because...People may want rules to work differently than someone else. One person may request an acceptance of deal through a PM...while others will want it posted on the boards. Small differences like this lead me to believe that the person opening the trade thread should list the rules for the trade.

@Trick,
*Cowers in fear.* Sorry masta...don't hit me...

[BassmanARW]

@BassmanARW,
We are on the same page. Nothing irritates me more than seeing a trade thread like this:

I want Wrath of God.
Offers?

The basic layout could be broken down a little further than you explained:

Rules:

Refs:

Haves:

Wants:

Other:

The only reason i say this is because...People may want rules to work differently than someone else. One person may request an acceptance of deal through a PM...while others will want it posted on the boards. Small differences like this lead me to believe that the person opening the trade thread should list the rules for the trade.

@Trick,
*Cowers in fear.* Sorry masta...don't hit me...

The rules I listed on the example were meant to be only an example. I didn't mean like - these are the rules you need to have. I think I did say "it should go like this...post on thread first...pm to finalize..." or something like that. That also was not meant to be set in stone, but only a guideline. I noticed a few people on here acting like they were afraid to death of a trade forum, thereby implying they have never really used one. Therefore, I figured I would set out a simple layout that anyone could alter or change to their discretion. Some people really do come up with some terrible trade threads that are unorganized and such an therefore they get bad business so I figured a decent guidline would help. Not nearly as many people will want to browse through a trade thread that has no haves and only wants as you touched on.  Also the way you interact with other traders will also help your business. For every 1 person you have a good deal with, you automatically at least triple your amount of business as they will always remember, hey that guy had some decent stuff, he was really nice, and I got his stuff pretty fast. I should check out his list again, etc. The layout you mentioned (rules, refs, haves, wants, other) was essentially the same one I did as well. The only difference is that I gave some examples of some rules which you must have thought I meant for everyone to have haha. But yeah, everyone will have their own rules. If you check out my thread it has that same layout you mentioned and some other stuff too.

[imachampion]

Seems like we are on the same page. Sounds good to me.